Thursday, April 2, 2020

Mythbusters: OSR Edition


Before I start on the topic at hand I want to say that I am a huge fan of what the OSR movement has done for the hobby (and me as some of my favorite games fall under the OSR and it has helped me become a better GM) of role playing. We have seen countless rules light games with various innovations, numerous retro-clones, and a ton of DIY games and variations on existing systems. I think the most important aspects to come out of it is a focus on role playing and not roll playing (a lot more player agency with a narrative driven mindset) and an interest in all of the other founders of the hobby and how they played (Dave Arneson, David Wesely, etc). I would be remiss at this point not to mention the Secrets of Blackmoor Documentary which explains the true history of Dungeon and Dragons.

This is also one of my favorite aspects of the OSR movement...


Even with all of these amazing things going on in the hobby in regards to the OSR and what the OSR has inspired there are myths that are taken as gospel which hang over the OSR like the Mists of Ravenloft. The core of these myths revolve around the game being made extra deadly by way of weak characters (this is in addition to the encounters, lack of built in snowflake abilities, monsters, resource management, etc). I have already talked about my ideas regarding pointless POINTLESS character death here. Cavegirl makes a great argument regarding how character death can be liberating and I agree with her up to the point that the death should be with purpose, meaningful, heroic, or at least a learning experience for the player. The learning experience angle is becoming one of my favorites because as Cavegirl points out, players will quickly learn that they can't and shouldn't solve every problem by hitting it with an axe, will become better at resource management, and take a more all around mindful approach to all situations. Though, I do not think character death is liberating when it is a constant march into a meat grinder.



These myths are perpetrated mainly by two ways...

1. 3d6 in Order: This method for rolling stats is common across the board. There are a handful of games today that will have an optional rule blurb about rolling 4d6 and dropping the lowest or an array. I am not sure where this myth started and how it has taken such a powerful hold on the OSR movement. In the AD&D 1e Dungeon Master's Guide (this book is considered the Holy Grail by many across the role playing hobby regardless of genre and is a must have/read) Gary Gygax's writing states that PCs in Dungeons and Dragons should a "viable character of the race and profession which he or she desires". Gary goes on to discuss that it is possible to generate a playable character by rolling 3d6, but only after "an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to the quirks of the dice". Creating and playing characters is one of the best aspects of the game and the characters should be heroic, not peasants with pitch forks. the AD&D 1e Dungeon Master's Guide goes on to list different methods for generating ability scores:

  • Method I: All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 4d6 are rolled and the lowest dice is discarded. 
  • Method II: All scores are recorded and arranged in the order the player desires. 3d6 are rolled twelve times and the highest six scores are retained. 
  • Method III: Scores are rolled according to each ability category in order: Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma. 3d6 are rolled six times for each ability and the highest score for each ability is retained. 
  • Method IV: 3d6 are rolled to generate totals for each of the three ability scores in order. This is done twelve times in a row (basically making twelve different characters) and the player selects which set of six scores to use. 
  • Method V: This method actually appears in Unearthed Arcana 1e. The player chooses the class first and then roll on attributes that were most important to least important. So, the player would take the stat that was most important and roll 9d6 taking the three highest results and adding them together. This method would be done for each stat but subtracting 1d6 for each stat rolled. So, the second most important stat would be 8d6 (adding the three highest results) rolled and so on until you get to the least important state and rolled 3d6. If you do not get the prerequisite minimum for your class, you take that minimum. This is actually my current favorite method and I cannot wait to be able to use it. 
Nowhere in there is 3d6 in order. This method appears to be for commoners and people of little or no renown. Gary talks about how named NPCs should have high stats but general characters should be average. Gary goes on to recommend that when using 3d6 in order for general population commoners results of one's should be treated as three's and sixes should be counted as fours.

For normal commoners to save time, I would just use an array personally.


2. Low Hit Points/Dice: Low hit points or dice is another common theme across the board. This myth took hold at the beginning of the movement and it has been perpetuated since. I think this myth was born out of three ideas/issues. The first one being a mindset of "that is the way it has always been done and I will do it that way". The second one being that Hit Points were originally envisioned as literal vitality and meant to how much physical damage a body can take. Gary Gygax reinforced this idea by stating:

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points?..."
I think this what people have latched on to for the most part. A lot of people don't include or focus on what Gary went on to say (or it was lost in translation):

"...Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage – as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the “sixth sense” which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness)."
Though because both ideas about hit points is part of the same statement people who don't focus on the first part take it as hit points should represent both vitality and luck/stamina/sixth sense. This is partly why HP levels, HD, and HD pools rarely change. Honestly though, who ever really enjoyed the d4 wizard? Or the super strong Conan style warrior that gets taken down by a lucky roll from a single orc?


The idea of hit points being vitality at all is outdated while hit points being purely luck/stamina/sixth sense makes a lot more sense. The latter also gives combat an idea of fluidity of parries and strikes instead of taking turns hitting a a stationary target.

The third idea is not an issue but more of how there is a lot of retro-clones in the OSR. These retro-clones want to try to stay as true as possible to the original material for compatibility. These retro-clones usually reorganize and redefine rules in addition to adding additional rules or changing how various rules interact. This is something I understand but it does not add much more word count to add a sidebar explaining this is how it was originally described and then using more modern innovation or vice versa. I know I mentioned compatibility earlier and I would like to point out that even the more innovative games int he OSR movement (such as White Hack, Black Hack 2e, Heroes Journey, etc.) are highly compatible with most other OSR games and adventures.

Before we discuss ideas how to adjust the hit points we must look to the philosophy of how hit points evolved:

“When we tried to use the old matrix rules (for CHAINMAIL™) only one die decided combat.  So either the player would die or the monster would.  Well, the players didn’t like that, so that’s where I came up with hit points….”  Dave Arneson, Gamespy interview by Andrew S. Bub August 2002.
Even if we look to modern editions of Dungeon and Dragons and other related games we still run into the same problem but the blows from the problem is softened. Regardless, even in 5e or Pathfinder 1e/2e the first couple levels characters are still really squashy and they are one crit or trap away from a new character.


So, thinking outside of the box is a must here. There is one thing that must be understood and applied to everything else we are going to be discussing and that one thing is hit points are not about vitality but are representative of luck and stamina. There are some people that have basically deemed them plot armor and I love that concept and what it invokes. With that being said, down the rabbit hole we go:

Ideas from Original Theories 
From my research and understanding Dave Arneson preferred a system where hit points were more static and did not improve as characters gained levels or they slowly improved. Then you have some of the board and other war games that inspired David Wesely.

  • Looking to Gamma World 1e, the hit points in that game did not improve. Usually your hit points were figured out by the characters Constitution Score x d6. I really like this idea but the d6 is to swingy and you can end up with characters that have 17 hit points or 102 hot points. I would take the average here and rule Constitution Score x3 or x4. That flattens the curve.
  • Scrap hit points all together and use a wound system. Barons of Braunstein, Blood of Pangea, West End Games d6 System, and any iteration of the Storyteller System are good places to look for inspiration. I really enjoy the Blood of Pangea/Barons of Braunstein model - starting characters have 10 wounds. Successful attacks do 1 wound (or 2 with a two handed weapon) and critical for an addition loss of a wound. Additional wounds are gained slowly as one increases in experience as most armor now adds additional wounds. 
Ideas from Modern Evolution
These next couple of ideas are going to build from the common system of hit dice and their interaction with hit points (gaining a new HD every level, rolling it, and adding it to your total). We also have to understand games that have you re-roll HD every level and stop giving you HD by mid progression are not effective at curving the low hit points problem. Before I even go into options, I am going to give a shout out to games like Pathfinder (Pathfinder had a baked in rule where you could take half HD+1 as your result instead of rolling)and Dungeons and Dragons 5e (5e has max HD + Constitution modifier baked in) because they finally got rid of the d4 wizards and the other low hit dice classes and threw on various systems to curve low hp. So, we are going to use base idea of casters (wizards/sorcerers/warlocks) have a d6, all other hybrid classes (Druid, Cleric, Rogue, Monk, etc) have a d8, and the martial classes (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger) have a d10.

Even with using a common house rule of MAX hit points at first level the character is squishy. To be honest, characters really do not get their sea legs until level 3+. The most efficient and straightforward way to handle this style is what follows:
  • Starting Hit Points is Calculated by max HD + Constitution. In subsequent HD rolls, martial classes re-roll 1s and 2s while all other classes only re-roll 1s.
  • Starting Hit Points is Calculated by 10 + max HD. In subsequent HD rolls, martial classes re-roll 1s and 2s while all other classes only re-roll 1s. This alleviates Constitution being a power stat and players will not feel as forced to place high attribute ratings in Constitution. This method also gives some early hit point disbursement between the classes. 
  • Starting Hit Points is a static number - 12 or 15. In subsequent HD rolls, martial classes re-roll 1s and 2s while all other classes only re-roll 1s. This method allows all characters start on an even playing field and hit point disbursement becomes more apparent as the characters level up

3. Honorable Mention - "The One True Way": This does not fall into one of the main two ways but deserves a mention. There are people or groups of people in the OSR community that are very loud and obnoxious about how games have to be a certain way/follow certain patterns/must have rule X,Y, and Z to be considered OSR. Anything that does not fit their idea of what is OSR is met with great resistance and spite. These people basically cause edition wars within something that is not an edition or a single but something that is intellectual and spiritual in style. Look, everyone can play what they want and how they want. They can even have civil and theoretical discussions about it, but when it becomes a war band and these people/person(s) maliciously attack people who disagree with them or create an environment where it sours old and new players alike is when it becomes a problem. I consider peoples preferences on game styles or editions like a penis - it is alright to have one and it is alright to be proud of it but when you start waving it in my face is when it becomes a problem. I am sure at this point you are wondering, what is the mythbuster here? There is no one true way to play.

Let's face it. Characters should be heroic! Even if they are scoundrels (instead of the usual Superman ideology) because they are not and should never be a common peasant with a pitch fork guarding the chickens. Characters are made of tougher stuff and are meant for legendary things. For the love of the Dice Gods, let your players create actual heroes. Because honestly, they are going to do stupid things, run into some serious bad luck, not retreat when they should, and solve problems with their axe when it is not warranted. This coupled with the encounter style and low healing of the OSR is going to lead to plenty of deaths, but these deaths will not be pointless and they will be liberating! Higher attributes and a handful of extra hit points are not going to change this.

10 comments:

  1. You need to go back to the original rules. AD&D is the second, revised, set of rules designed for tournament play. In the original 3 booklets, the referee rolled 3d6 for a character's stats, in order, and then handed them to the player to make a character with.

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  2. I am aware of this.

    That is why I wrote a section about how a lot of games in the OSR are retro-clones that stay true to their source material such as b/x and OD&D. This is something I do not have a problem with.

    Though a lot of the ideas from Arneson, Gygax, and others that came after OD&D (such as in the AD&D 1e DMG and from other interviews) show a re-evaluation of what hit points represent and the importance of having attributes better then your average farmer with a pitch fork.

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  3. Yeah, you make some good points there. The whole "OSR must be deadly" is full of misunderstanding. For one thing, HP are MEANT to keep your character alive for longer, which is why Arnedon/Gygax adopted them.
    Gygax himself started PCs at level 3 IIRC.
    Besides, lots of people say that "in B/X you got 5 HP and a goblin deals 1d6 damage, while in 5e you start the game with 11 HP!"... Ignoring the fact that the 5e goblin has 1d6 + 2 damage and +4 to hit, can hide as a bonus action (attacking you with advantage)... and is not affected by morale rolls.
    I prefer the B/X way, but ignoring these details leads to wrongful conclusions.

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    1. I always forget about how Gygax started out most of his IIRC games at level 3.

      I am glad you pointed out the math bloat as well. I mentioned that even modern games have a deadly slant for the first few levels.

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  4. I think it's worth mentioning, when it comes to hit points a few games (Dark Fantasy Basic and Crypts & Things for example) use the CON as flesh and bone and HP as dodging and fatigue or something similar. I'm on a work computer and can't check right now. A sort of codified version of Gygax's comments.

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  5. I have to confess that came to the OSR scene largely because it did offer the chance to play Peasants & Pitchforks. Attachment to the characters themselves comes from all the things they've managed to live through, rather than planning them at the start and dreaming of all the things they will be able to do at some point in the future.

    I do agree with the idea that there is a misunderstanding of what hit points represents, or perhaps an inconsistency in thought, which leads eventually to the yo-yo effect you see in some games of characters being brought 'to the brink of death' only to get an instant heal and dance around like they're in the prime of their life.

    My own preference is for there to be a gradient of efficacy, rather than a binary dead or fighting fit status. Our games see characters reduced to 0HP start getting injured - each point of damage beyond 0 they receive takes up an inventory slot, and when all their slots are filled with injuries (usually 9-11 total), then they die. Rendering equipment dropped or unusable means that characters are not quite as effective the more they're hurt, but doesn't render them useless. It also serves as a handy warning that the character is faltering - it's a genuine choice now to fight on through or flee.

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    1. I've considered what Idle Doodler is describing. I came to the conclusion that bolting on these extra mechanics only "delay orgasm". HP represent a distillation of all the angles which could be considered in modeling damage and fatigue and effort, and calls it unnecessary.

      HP don't represent any one "thing", HP is the tool the DM uses to decide what that any one thing is going to be.

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    2. Ya, Into the Odd really changed my whole outlook on HP. Now I consider it Stamina or or plot armor.

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  6. > constant march into a meat grinder.

    Whether they march their characters into that meat grinder is a player choice (and that choice should not be recinded). If a DM only has meat grinders in their world, then find a different DM. But, there should exist meat grinders in every world. And if players are mule headed enough to continiously feed it, then their characters deserve to be sausage.

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  7. > AD&D DMG

    Came out 5 years after D&D. AD&D is by far not the only (and not even popular in my area/on the internets I red (might be selection bias)). But the point is your are being TOTALLY disingenious (or worse ignorant) to claim

    > I am not sure where this myth started and how it has taken such a powerful hold on the OSR movement

    And then cherry pick a ruleset that supports your argument. While ignoring the origins and history of 3d6 in order. Also, ignoring the countless online essays on what/why 3d6 order is a design choice that drives certain OSR styles.

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